IRC Driven

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[00:45:31] + brothchild m5 max t/s 103, m4 max t/s 83 - not worth the price bump?

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Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis

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[01:24:34] + brothchild hay

[01:24:36] + brothchild I COULD

[01:24:44] + brothchild sell some stuff and buy an apple M4 MAX

[01:24:56] + brothchild can i get ridd of loser apple OS

[01:43:42] + brothchild https://x0.at/9gbc.ans wood between the worlds: 120 columns 24bit ansi

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redstarcomrade redstarcomrade

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[03:04:07] + brothchild Someone made a club for us 3090 cavemen! https://github.com/noonghunna/club-3090

[03:04:07] @ glitchy [url] GitHub - noonghunna/club-3090: Community recipes for serving LLMs on RTX 3090. Multi-engine (vLLM, llama.cpp, SGLang) and model-agnostic. Currently shipping Qwen3.6-27B configs for 1× and 2× cards. · | github.com

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[03:06:30] grungy what models can you guys run on a 3090 ?

[03:08:06] grungy I have an RX 5960 AMD - 16 Gb vram. The most i can run is 9b models. such as qwen 3.5:9b

[03:09:07] + brothchild well you can run MoE right grungy

[03:09:11] + brothchild or do you need the speed

[03:09:40] + brothchild I am happy letting a big model split between VRAM and DRAM chug away at a problem while i do something else

[03:10:08] + brothchild but if you're in a harness, doing agentic, lots of pre-fill tokens, then yeah

[03:10:27] + brothchild but agentic is meh, you give up control. I don't like that.

[03:11:03] + brothchild If you're coding on your own, you can have a slow big model pound out a function for you while you work on something else.

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[03:12:31] + brothchild some interesting models for <24GB

[03:12:35] + brothchild 16G Dolphin-Mistral-24B-Venice-Edition.i1-Q5_K_M.gguf

[03:12:35] + brothchild 16G Kimi-VL-A3B-Thinking-2506-Q8_0.gguf

[03:12:35] + brothchild 17G Holo3-35B-A3B-APEX-I-Compact.gguf

[03:12:35] + brothchild 17G Qwen3.5-397B-A17B-IQ3_S-00004-of-00004.gguf

[03:12:35] + brothchild 18G gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-ultra-uncensored-heretic-Q5_K_M.gguf

[03:12:36] + brothchild 18G Qwen3.5-27B.Q6_K_H.gguf

[03:12:36] + brothchild 19G Big-Tiger-Gemma-27B-v3.i1-Q5_K_M.gguf

[03:12:37] + brothchild 20G Qwen3.5-35B-A3B-heretic.i1-Q4_K_M.gguf

[03:13:08] + brothchild oops ignore that 397B

[03:13:44] + brothchild if you can deal with a bit less ctx

[03:13:46] + brothchild 21G Huihui-Qwen3.5-27B-Claude-4.6-Opus-abliterated.Q6_K.gguf

[03:13:46] + brothchild 21G OpenAI-gpt-oss-20B-INSTRUCT-Terse-Heretic-Uncensored.i1-Q6_K.gguf

[03:13:46] + brothchild 21G Seed-OSS-36B-Base-Instruct-Karcher-Merge.Q4_K_M.gguf

[03:14:04] + brothchild 22G gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-uncensored-heretic-Q6_K.gguf

[03:14:04] + brothchild 22G OLMo-2-0325-32B-Instruct-Q5_K_M.gguf

[03:14:06] + brothchild 23G medgemma-27b-it-UD-Q6_K_XL.gguf

[03:17:30] grungy thank you for the extensive answer

[03:17:54] grungy I am using it harnested by openclaw which is on another machine

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[03:29:30] + brothchild grungy: do you need the card to run your display or is all the 16GB free?

[03:29:39] + brothchild i have some suggesterions for < 16 GB also

[03:30:06] clowns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV5WYIMI5ZY

[03:31:52] + brothchild SO AWESOME with tuned kernel + dfloash i can go from 21tok/s to 125!!!!!

[03:32:04] + brothchild with qwen3.6-27B

[03:32:08] * brothchild runs around in circles

[03:33:49] grungy brothchild: pretty much a dedicated 16 gb gpu.

[03:34:19] + brothchild running mostly in your harness then? mostly coding?

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Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis Neo_Nemesis

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[03:34:43] + brothchild i'm not very experienced in what's good for that

[03:35:06] grungy more for tooling, like an assistant

[03:35:57] + brothchild yeh idk, i find 9B a bit lacking

[03:35:59] + brothchild maybe try

[03:36:02] + brothchild 12G Josiefied-Qwen3-30B-A3B-abliterated-v2.i1-Q5_K_M.gguf

[03:36:02] + brothchild 12G Qwen3-Coder-30B-APEX-Mini.gguf

[03:36:02] + brothchild 13G gemma-4-26B-A4B-heretic-APEX-I-Mini.gguf

[03:36:03] + brothchild 13G gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-UD-IQ4_XS.gguf

[03:36:18] + brothchild surprisingly this has been amazing for me

[03:36:21] + brothchild 9.6G Qwen3-Coder-30B-A3B-Instruct-Q3_K_S-2.69bpw.gguf

[03:36:35] + brothchild Byteshape's 2.69bpw quant has just been magic

[03:36:48] + brothchild idk maybe it's just my small sample size and luck

[03:37:15] + brothchild but it's just really understanding what i want

[03:38:02] grungy yes for recent models above 9b, the load spills on the cpu

[03:38:39] + brothchild are you running safetensors then?

[03:38:57] grungy no directly on ollama

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[03:41:33] + brothchild a 9b model at a Q_4 quant should use like 5GB for the weights

[03:41:40] + brothchild what's using up your remaining 11GB

[03:42:10] + brothchild also idk if ollama is a good choice

[03:42:13] + brothchild i think it's not

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Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras Zathras

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[03:43:31] + brothchild good day sir Zathras

[03:51:00] * glitchy set mode +v Zathras

[03:57:12] grungy it takes 100% of my gpu.

[03:57:22] grungy what other client would you advice

[03:57:25] grungy that older one

[04:02:29] + brothchild i recommend llama.cpp for exploring models and learning how to run efficiently.

[04:02:49] + brothchild i am biased as a contributor though

[04:03:20] grungy no, i've good things about it. ThatOrdinaryGame use it regularly (on youtube)

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[04:06:14] + brothchild i've got a script now that throws together 1) Random Actors and Actions 2) Random scene/setting 3) Random lighting/mood

[04:06:26] + brothchild making some funny combos with flux2

[04:07:03] + brothchild but every image has mild to severe mody distortion/mutation

[04:08:47] + brothchild it's just hilarious that i can have a $100 laptop running image generation constantly, not notice any significant CPU load

[04:09:03] + brothchild and run LFM2-8B-A1B at the same time

[04:09:10] + brothchild horray for china!

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[04:40:28] + rdr so i have access to an RX570 and a RTX1050 (non-ti) I think, is the models they are capable running in their limited RAM worth it?

[04:41:54] + brothchild how much VRAM

[04:42:16] + brothchild 5.4G gemma-4-E4B-it-obliterated-Q5_K_M.gguf might be nice

[04:42:28] + brothchild 5.6G LFM2-8B-A1B-absolute-heresy.i1-Q5_K_M.gguf

[04:42:28] + brothchild 5.8G GLM-4.6V-Flash-heretic-imatrix-Q4_K_M.gguf

[04:42:45] + brothchild 4.8G Crow-9B-Opus-4.6-Distill-Heretic_Qwen3.5.i1-IQ4_XS.gguf

[04:42:59] + brothchild 4.7G huihui-ai.Qwen3-8B-abliterated.Q4_K_M.gguf

[04:42:59] + brothchild 4.7G LFM2-8B-A1B-HuiHui-abliterated.i1-Q4_K_M.gguf

[04:43:39] + rdr i can't remember how to figure out graphics ram

[04:44:34] + brothchild 1050 has 2GB? says websearch

[04:45:09] + brothchild rx570 has 4GB and 8GB versions

[04:45:38] + brothchild i wouldn't bother with < 8GB

[04:47:21] + brothchild small models can be fun on iGPU also! cheap Vega8 can still be useful

[04:54:15] + rdr i think mine is the bigger one

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[04:59:09] * linux_probe check s in rdr's pants, nope

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[04:59:33] + rdr hey >.<

[04:59:34] & linux_probe LOL, that was a wide open invitation

[04:59:52] + rdr i just came here ot get help with btop

[05:00:19] * burnout set mode +v Parrot

[05:00:22] & linux_probe well, hopefully you like some cheesey jokes

[05:00:36] * burnout set mode +o Parrot

[05:00:47] * burnout set mode +v Chex

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[05:15:36] + brothchild i might be a bit too dismissive of qwen3.5-9b. IN agentic harness with websearch it can be good

[05:15:42] + brothchild https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1t1n6o8/we_are_finally_there_qwen3627b_agentic_search_957/

[05:15:56] + brothchild beating gpt-oss-20b? wow

[05:19:33] ~ End3r I'm limited what I can run on this rig

[05:19:40] ~ End3r Client: HexChat 2.20 • OS: Ubuntu "questing" 25.10 • CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800H with Radeon Graphics (403MHz) • Memory: Physical: 22.8 GiB Total (13.9 GiB Free) Swap: 7.8 GiB Total (7.8 GiB Free) • Storage: 580.2 GB / 2.4 TB (1.9 TB Free) • Uptime: 12h 14m 14s

[05:20:06] ~ End3r it has 32GB ram, but gpu is taking what's missing

[05:20:28] + brothchild faster than my laptop! :)

[05:20:28] ~ End3r so shared ddr5 :P

[05:20:44] + brothchild i got 16GB shared 2ch ddr4 about 33GB/s and vega8

[05:21:19] + brothchild and a couple <13GB models can one-shot game simulations on this office thinkpad

[05:21:21] + brothchild it amazin

[05:24:03] kryptik limited? that thing is a beast!

[05:24:08] kryptik i have AT clone 286 sitting next to me =0

[05:24:11] kryptik 8 mhz

[05:28:21] + rdr if an iphone has over 2x the speed of the computer that went to the moon, surely i can go to your heart and get your number

[05:30:49] ~ End3r haha

[05:30:52] ~ End3r rdr++

[05:30:52] @ glitchy 🆙 Karma boost! rdr gained 1 karma ✨ (🎯 2 in #linux | 🌐 5 global)

[05:35:00] + rdr how dare you assume i wanna parlez-vous with you?

[05:37:15] zer0s kryptik: right?

[05:37:21] zer0s I have 512mb on this computer

[05:37:31] zer0s you make it work

[05:42:13] + rdr netbsd runs on toasters

[05:43:11] & burnout ^

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[05:44:08] zer0s i heard LLMs cracked openbsd open like a can of peanuts

[05:46:40] + rdr that's why you can't let them see your source code!!!!

[05:48:31] zer0s lol

[05:48:37] zer0s i think its too late

[05:53:27] kryptik zer0s my AT has 1152mib ram

[05:53:28] kryptik xD

[05:53:31] kryptik kib sorry

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[05:53:43] kryptik 640 K conventional memory + 512 K expanded memory on the AST card

[05:54:12] @ mlu End3r: how's the iGPU on that thing?

[05:54:23] @ mlu End3r: or do you not game on your Linux box?

[05:54:28] kryptik rdr i run my servers on netbsd actually, its my favorite of the "modern" unix systems

[05:54:45] zer0s kryptik: still twice mine

[05:54:52] kryptik kib, not mib

[05:54:54] kryptik i mis wrote

[05:54:55] zer0s ah

[05:55:03] kryptik that computer is from 1984 lol

[05:55:09] ~ End3r mlu it's pretty good. it can play some stuff if I wanted to. I really don't play games anymore

[05:55:15] zer0s nice

[05:55:33] kryptik i like to play my ps2 and ps3

[05:55:38] kryptik tony hawks american wasteland =D

[05:55:40] + rdr I run my servers on things with a modern filesystem BAZINGA "We will be back to Breaking Ba-I mean Better Call Sheldon after these brief messages"

[05:55:41] zer0s I like old hardware, but the plastics are brittle and the parts are loud

[05:55:53] kryptik i dont like new computers

[05:55:56] @ mlu I rarely game these days, but occasionally, I do wanna get my yayas out

[05:56:14] kryptik i dont even have any computers that most people would consider modern nowadays =p

[05:56:20] + rdr FreeBSD is getting decent at that

[05:56:29] + rdr they have a much newer linux base you can use

[05:56:30] @ mlu everyone has a different definition of modern :/

[05:56:48] @ mlu personally, I define "modern" as any system that runs programs in user mode

[05:56:49] + rdr even got Steam running with unlimited Gemini prompts

[05:56:59] kryptik i dont want something modern, i just want it to run the few programs i need like unrealircd, nginx, etc and not eat a ton of cpu and memory lol

[05:57:11] kryptik netbsd is decent at that, not perfect but better than alternatives

[05:57:16] @ mlu by my definition, all of those would require a 'modern" system

[05:57:22] kryptik most linux distros and freebsd need too much memory

[05:57:25] @ mlu kryptik: have you taken a look at Alpine?

[05:57:28] kryptik my server only has 128 MiB memory and 400 MHz cpu

[05:57:37] @ mlu oooh, old server

[05:57:45] @ mlu that worse in spec than my first home server from 2001

[05:57:54] kryptik i have mlu, im not as big on linux though =p

[05:58:00] kryptik i use it sometimes for certain things, there are things it does well

[05:58:01] * mlu had 128MiB RAM but 550MHz CPU

[05:58:09] kryptik i just realized what channel im in, i forgot xD

[05:58:33] kryptik the server is a computer i got for $5 from a guy i buy old PC parts and things from

[05:58:38] kryptik super socket 7, AMD K6-2 400 MHz

[05:58:40] @ mlu kryptik: it's OK -- as long as you're not trying to justify a WIndows 2000 server or something

[05:59:06] kryptik i do use win-XP, 98, etc on many of my desktops, but i make my own patches to fix things like security bugs etc

[05:59:09] * mlu was really into FreeBSD back in the days

[05:59:17] kryptik servers i usually dont run windows though

[05:59:24] @ mlu kryptik: uh, how are you supposed to patch WinXP from security issues?

[05:59:30] kryptik by hand, machine language code

[05:59:31] + rdr fish: Unknown command: free

[05:59:42] @ mlu sounds very, very laborious

[05:59:55] kryptik it can be, its fun and challenging too though =p

[05:59:56] @ mlu unless your threat model is one where they aren't exposed to the open internet

[06:00:10] kryptik especially when you get into more advanced things, like i make patches to support newer programs that dont support the older OS

[06:00:23] kryptik those can be very challenging

[06:00:29] kryptik and kernel mode stuff for drivers too

[06:00:54] @ mlu oh yeah, what do you do about modern encryption requirements (i.e. TLS 1.2 /w ECDHE, and AES128GCM)

[06:01:17] kryptik my web browser, email client, and any other network connected things all support modern TLS

[06:01:19] @ mlu like, you didn't even have accelerated instructions for those until ~2015-ish

[06:01:34] @ mlu or is it older system running on reasonably non-ancient hardware?

[06:01:46] kryptik my primary desktop PC is an AMD FX 8 core with 16 gib ram

[06:01:55] kryptik but i have older computers too that i use for other things, which don't do much network-related use

[06:02:11] kryptik TLS isnt as hard as you think though.. my 486 DX2 running DOS can connect to a server with TLS 1.3 in maybe 20 seconds

[06:02:12] @ mlu kryptik: guess like 10Mbit/s is good enough for ytou?

[06:02:17] kryptik and that 486 has no cache either

[06:02:25] kryptik with cache it would be half that time

[06:02:28] kryptik i need to get cache chips for it

[06:02:31] @ mlu 20s -- you have a lot of patience :D

[06:02:45] kryptik ive been using old computers my whole life, i dont mind the speed lol

[06:02:54] @ mlu at least ChaCha20 is fast

[06:02:57] kryptik yes, 10mbps is fine for me

[06:03:07] kryptik many of my laptops still have wireless b or wireless g lol

[06:03:08] kryptik no problem for me

[06:03:13] @ mlu I want my preceptually instant computing :)

[06:03:26] kryptik "different strokes for different folks" as the saying goes

[06:03:39] + brothchild kryptik: wing commander was pretty impressive on 286 but i think it wanted 12mhz to be smooth

[06:03:48] * mlu actually did some major equipment upgrades to make sure that he could actually push a full gigabit through his VPN

[06:03:51] kryptik i like my room full of antiques with loud clicky hard disks, external scsi stuff, i even have VOIP set up where i can use my modems

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[06:04:09] + brothchild i invented that rendering that they used for wing commander btw. had a little demo and all.

[06:04:31] kryptik brothchild: im a fairly casual gamer, i sometimes play tony hawk or GTA on my PS2/PS3 but thats about it

[06:04:39] kryptik my computers are used for computer things like programming etc

[06:04:43] @ mlu antiques are fun to play with, but I'd never use them on a day-to-day basis

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grungy grungy

[06:04:53] kryptik maybe im a bit crazy then XD

[06:04:57] * mlu wants a linotype machine some day

[06:04:57] + brothchild could use one as unhackable IRC computer

[06:05:22] @ mlu a C64 should be sufficient with a proper interface

[06:05:28] + brothchild idk

[06:05:29] kryptik i had a programming job once and i showed up to the interview and pulled my pentium mmx laptop running netbsd out of my bag to do the little tasks he wanted me to do to prove my skills xD

[06:05:31] @ mlu C64 + SLIP for IRC? :D

[06:05:44] @ mlu kryptik: did the job involve dealing with legacy systems? :D

[06:05:52] + brothchild i don't think anyone's done it in 64KB. the msdos IRC + TCP stack needs more

[06:05:55] + kryptik no, just php and C programming

[06:05:58] @ mlu or did they turn you down for "cultural fit"? :D

[06:06:03] + kryptik i got the job

[06:06:04] * glitchy set mode +v kryptik

[06:06:10] @ mlu yay

[06:06:19] + kryptik there was some drama with the other programmer they had though, i think she didnt like me or something.. i wasnt there for long

[06:06:20] + brothchild i have a 640KB machine that can do irc via ethernet over parallel printer port

[06:06:29] + brothchild it's pretty wacky

[06:06:31] + kryptik it was sort of weird, she was living with the owner and his wife

[06:06:44] @ mlu that's a red flag IMO

[06:06:47] + kryptik ye lol

[06:06:56] + kryptik but i needed a job

[06:07:08] @ mlu I've worked with some weird customers

[06:07:09] + brothchild i spent a year living at a game company

[06:07:19] @ mlu one of them still owes me $$$$$ of unpaid fees

[06:07:39] + kryptik i was there for three months and thats the longest job ive had lol, ive had a hard time

[06:07:43] @ mlu I've long since written it off ;)

[06:07:47] + kryptik im 23.. entry level market is rough right now

[06:07:56] @ mlu hey, this iwas only a few years ago

[06:08:24] ~ End3r I have a kid your age

[06:08:26] ~ End3r lol

[06:08:29] @ mlu learned the hard way: collect your deposit up front, and if they don't pay the second half, no more work -- no exceptions

[06:08:34] + kryptik but, i have a friend from the local computer club who is starting a MSP and he wants to hire me once he gets it off the ground.. im hopeful

[06:08:43] + kryptik he says he thinks he might have some work for me by Q3 of this yaer

[06:08:44] + kryptik year*

[06:08:52] & linux_probe spam i am said sam

[06:08:54] @ mlu the blue collar version of sysadmin :D

[06:09:06] ~ End3r I work for a MSP

[06:09:07] ~ End3r lol

[06:09:10] + kryptik well, the work ill be doing will be more varied than your typical msp stuff

[06:09:23] + kryptik there will be programming, linux/unix stuff, plus your typical client site support stuff etc

[06:09:28] + brothchild what's a msp

[06:09:34] @ mlu managed service provider

[06:09:37] ~ End3r managed service provider

[06:09:43] + kryptik he calls me "the wizard" lol

[06:09:43] @ mlu it's those firms you hire to handle IT

[06:09:45] + kryptik leet

[06:09:53] + brothchild ok i websearch that ty

[06:10:05] @ mlu if you take a look at some of the most knowledgable people around, they all work at MSPs -- that's how they get exposed to enough variety

[06:10:10] ~ End3r glitchy please explain what a MSP is in detail

[06:10:24] @ glitchy End3r: MSP=Managed Service Provider, third-party co remotely/proactively managing client IT infra, networks, endpoints, security, backups, helpdesk etc via subscription (per-user/device/mo) vs old break/fix—predictable costs, expert access, SLAs for SMBs w/o full IT teams; e.g. monitor Linux srvrs w/ Nagios/Zabbix, patch kernels, RMM tools like ConnectWise.

[06:10:27] + brothchild the only thing i could do was education, tailored to needs. Liability for service provision too dicey.

[06:10:34] * mlu has unfortunately switched to the dark side and writes code for a living

[06:10:41] @ mlu they paid me more!

[06:11:19] + kryptik i dont know if i would want to do full on programming for work

[06:11:29] + brothchild make friends, provide good value, be positive, you'll be one of the last to be laid-off

[06:11:30] @ mlu it's a very differnet skillset / mindset

[06:11:33] + kryptik im very ADHD, i think working for my friend's msp will be good for me since it will be varied work

[06:11:35] @ mlu I honestly miss the sysadmin work a bit

[06:11:57] @ mlu although I've also been coding for more than a decade, so do I really miss it, or am I nostalgic for an idealized version of it?

[06:12:17] + kryptik i started doing "real programming" in 2012

[06:12:30] + kryptik in 2013 i started learning assembly and reverse engineering

[06:12:38] + kryptik went straight from java to that lol

[06:12:45] + kryptik java was my first programming language

[06:12:50] + brothchild i dont know how some coders avoid getting physically ill from the environments they are expected to function in

[06:12:54] @ mlu in sysadmin, you can't just revert a commit :P

[06:13:09] @ mlu you might not get your choice of editor either

[06:13:26] + kryptik i just use notepad or something when im writing traditional code (C asm etc)

[06:13:30] * mlu pulls out a rollover cable and laugh-cries

[06:13:36] + kryptik or just a simple hex editor when im doing the machine language stuff for my old OS's

[06:13:42] + brothchild I liked the limited political entanglement I enjoyed as a consultant.

[06:13:42] + kryptik i dont even have syntax highlighting in my notepad lol

[06:13:50] @ mlu kryptik: notepad?! not vi or emacs?

[06:14:00] + kryptik im not a huge vi guy

[06:14:06] ~ End3r me neither

[06:14:11] + kryptik i can use it, like when i ssh into the unix servers

[06:14:11] @ mlu heh, nano?

[06:14:19] + kryptik technically im using Notepad2 which is a sort of "suped up notepad"

[06:14:28] + brothchild i liked 'brief' editor under DOS

[06:14:32] ~ End3r I like nano

[06:14:40] + kryptik i replaced windows\notepad.exe and windows\system32\notepad.exe with the notepad2 version

[06:14:42] + brothchild for IDE of course Borland Turbo-C

[06:14:50] @ mlu I'm a vi guy mostly because it's the only thing that's found everywhere, even when I'm on a serial port on a device with 16MB RAM

[06:14:57] + brothchild ✓ that mlu

[06:15:07] + kryptik i zip around on my XP/98/etc boxes, most of my important stuff is in path and i just hit win+r and type notepad for example to open it

[06:15:14] + brothchild though it's strangely hard to remember some things in vi

[06:15:15] + kryptik or to go to a directory i just win+r and then something like D:\downloads

[06:15:23] + kryptik its much faster than clicking through stuff

[06:15:32] @ mlu but if some coder asks me to teach them how to use vi, I tell them: don't, if you're just writing code, better just get good with VSCode or Sublime

[06:15:39] + brothchild i was at a company where even the secretaries had to learn vi

[06:15:42] + brothchild it was a trip

[06:15:49] + kryptik i used to be a major linux nut before doing the old windows patches, i used vim a lot

[06:15:51] @ mlu brothchild: was this recently?

[06:15:57] + brothchild ended 2001

[06:15:58] + kryptik then i started using primarily netbsd on my servers and learned vi

[06:16:01] + kryptik which is a bit clunkier than vim

[06:16:02] @ mlu ah, that made sense

[06:16:05] ~ End3r antigravity is good too

[06:16:14] @ mlu at my current company, eveyrone knows how to write code, including the operations assistant

[06:16:20] + kryptik i have vim on my windows boxes too but i dont use it much

[06:16:30] @ mlu but that's more of a coincidence than a requirement

[06:17:05] + brothchild i can't get all worked-up over editors

[06:17:11] @ mlu oh wait, oops, that no longer applies ever since we hired that new marketing person :/

[06:17:19] + kryptik yeah i dont really care about editors either lol, hence the notepad thing

[06:17:39] + kryptik people are always a bit weirded out when i mention that

[06:17:50] + brothchild there's only a certain speed I can think, and giving me faster editing via fancy shortcuts has diminishing returns

[06:17:59] + kryptik i also dont use version control, thats another thing that people get weirded out over lol

[06:18:00] @ mlu mmm slops

[06:18:17] + kryptik i had been programming for like 5 or 6 years before i even knew about git, cvs etc

[06:18:23] + kryptik so i just never really adopted it

[06:18:26] @ mlu kryptik: not even your own system of "copy 2"?

[06:18:29] + brothchild my things are small enough that i just make my own versions

[06:18:35] + kryptik thats what i do sometimes mlu

[06:18:44] + kryptik though i normally use date+time instead of 2 3 etc

[06:18:58] @ mlu kryptik: wouldn't it be nice if you now had a formalizesd system for it? :D

[06:19:08] + kryptik i tried git for a while but its tedious for me

[06:19:13] @ mlu kryptik: git actually sin't much more than simply doing that

[06:19:15] + brothchild agree @ tedious

[06:19:16] @ mlu ah

[06:19:24] + kryptik also, remember a lot of my programming is machine code patches for the old systems and programs

[06:19:31] + kryptik git can have issues with binary files

[06:19:40] @ mlu oh, you just need to replace the diff

[06:19:47] + kryptik also i dont like how git doesnt keep the modified date on the file

[06:19:57] @ mlu specify a custom diff when you're doing anything other than force-replacing files wholesale

[06:19:58] + kryptik when i just clone the folder it keeps all the dates in tact

[06:20:25] @ mlu that's because the modified date is supposed to be in the commit

[06:20:31] + kryptik im sure i could set up some automation thing where it copies all the dates into a file and then restores them when i revert the commit or something lol

[06:20:42] @ mlu oh, in practice, I never use revert

[06:20:44] + kryptik im a simple fellow, my way of doing things works for me

[06:20:45] + brothchild it should be smart enough to set the filesystem's timestamps correctly

[06:20:50] @ mlu I checkout to see old commits

[06:21:01] + kryptik yeah i dunno lol

[06:21:07] @ mlu the big issue is: what are the timestamps suppsoed to mean anyways?

[06:21:13] @ mlu they're only meaningful if you have a linear timeline

[06:21:29] + kryptik well, often i will view my files on my PC sorting by date

[06:21:33] @ mlu but if you go around jumping across timelines like Dr. Who and then splicing them in non-linear order, the timestamps are gonna be quite meaningless

[06:21:36] + kryptik i dont like things that screw with the file timestamps

[06:21:44] + brothchild well if your version control overwrites a newer filesystem timestamp with an older version of the file, i think it should reflect the version control date, not the physical creation date

[06:21:57] + brothchild s/creation/modification

[06:21:57] @ glitchy brothchild meant to say: well if your version control overwrites a newer filesystem timestamp with an older version of the file, i think it should reflect the version control date, not the physical modification date

[06:21:59] @ mlu where a past timestamp may come in both the future and the past and yet not be between them

[06:22:20] @ mlu but what's the meaning of a version control date other than the physical modification date at the time it was created?

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